Analysts Question PS3 Release Date ( 1 Views )

no kitty!

From here.

There's a number of good points mentioned throughout said article. If the PS3 does come out later than expected, than that will just give Microsoft a greater chance for market penetration. Not to mention that if its late enough (November, beyond), Microsoft could counter the release of the PS3 with a price drop on the X360. It took Microsoft a little over four months for the first price drop with the Xbox, but Microsoft also was a new player and needed market share fast. If the demand for the X360, keeps up, I definetly see a price drop of either the console or periphials, coinciding with the launch of the PS3. This would probably seriously hampper Sony with their estimated high cost.

(Atilla, Burundi)

I said the exact same thing a couple days ago.... Summer release in Japan, November release in USA :rolleyes:

(emel, French Polynesia)

Yeah, Sony seems like it's in a bad position right now. I wouldn't doubt them at all though - they did sell over 100million ps2's.

I think the price drop for the 360 would depend on the price of the PS3. If it's $600, a price drop wouldn't be necessary.

I'm going to get a PS3 regardless, but I hope MS does grab as much market share as possible.

(Bülent, Finland)

Sad to see the company that revolutionized console gaming with the PSX is now crushing itself under the weight of its own armor.

(berna, Chad)

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I said the exact same thing a couple days ago.... Summer release in Japan, November release in USA

got any information to back that up? or was it supposed to be sarcastic? i cant figure it out. everyone on the internet is either a genius or comedian :)

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Sad to see the company that revolutionized console gaming with the PSX is now crushing itself under the weight of its own armor

was anyone else really into the PS1? i played a few games on it, i hated it, jaggies galore. when i think of revolutionizing console gaming, i think of nintendo, and the PS2. that said, i'm holding out for the PS3. will probably buy revolution as well, for the exclusive titles.

dualdrop[H]enia

(AS, Poland)

Nintendo revolutionized console gaming (and continues to do so), Sony just made it more mainstream. Personally, I'm tired of seeing these threads. While it wasn't (I don't think it was) the original intent of the OP to turn this into another "the PS3 will cost $800 in 2007" "NO it won't!" it is quickly turning into another one of those discussions... been there done that.

(nuri, Equatorial Guinea)

It doesn't take an "industry analyst" to figure out that a "Spring Launch" is highly unlikely. The facts are:

There are no PS3 consoles done yet, hell...the worlds first cell based products only shipped 1 week ago.

Japan is going to get their consoles ahead of the US again...unless Sony breaks from their routine and does a worldwide launch. Which is possible since MS did it, they might not want to be upstaged.

Not a single game has been shown...not one.

I have my fingers crossed, I can't wait for the PS3 and the Revolution but I'm not holding my breath...

(çaðrý, Luxembourg)

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Originally Posted by Steve

I have my fingers crossed, I can't wait for the PS3 and the Revolution but I'm not holding my breath...

Do you think if we hold our breath it will make them make it faster? And what is the likelyhood that their will be yeild problems with those big cell processors? And how are they going to cool it without having any vent holes? And what will the REAL controller look like? Inquiring minds want to know.

My guess is a november launch in Japan and spring US. But you won't be able to get the new memory cards, they will be sold at a 1:10 ratio with the consoles.

(damla, Sweden)

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Originally Posted by 7718

Do you think if we hold our breath it will make them make it faster? And what is the likelyhood that their will be yeild problems with those big cell processors? And how are they going to cool it without having any vent holes? And what will the REAL controller look like? Inquiring minds want to know.

My guess is a november launch in Japan and spring US. But you won't be able to get the new memory cards, they will be sold at a 1:10 ratio with the consoles.

Doesnt the PS3 save to memory sticks? I'm fairly certain I read that somewhere.

(selin, Equatorial Guinea)

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Originally Posted by Naldo

Doesnt the PS3 save to memory sticks? I'm fairly certain I read that somewhere.

Isn't the PS3 going to be able to use a multitude of different memory card formats (SD, CompactFlash and Memory Sticks). Or is it just wishful thinking that Sony was going to break from their "buy our proprietary media so we can [censored] you with this stick until you give us all your money" attitudes?

(lokman, Turkmenistan)

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Originally Posted by Erasmus354

Isn't the PS3 going to be able to use a multitude of different memory card formats (SD, CompactFlash and Memory Sticks). Or is it just wishful thinking that Sony was going to break from their "buy our proprietary media so we can [censored] you with this stick until you give us all your money" attitudes?

Well, memory sticks arent exactly proprietary media (more companies than just sony make them), but It is sony's standard flash media (used in most of their devices, TVs', Mp3 players, cameras, etc.), so I would assume they would stick with that as the main format, other slots are probably jsut for the media capabilities.

(ÇÝYAYE, Singapore)

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Originally Posted by Erasmus354

Summer release in Japan, November release in USA :rolleyes:

/\
90% likely

(ahmet, Bahrain)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erasmus354

I said the exact same thing a couple days ago.... Summer release in Japan, November release in USA :rolleyes:

Werd.

I'll do ya one better and call the 549.99 price tag. (Yes I pulled that number out of my azz)

(aybüke, Mongolia)

Sony is shooting themselves in the foot... but it will still sell well.

(arzu , Wallis and Futuna)

I'm not a Sony fan, but when the PS3 hit it will still sell very very well. Lets not forget that.

But I think the main point here is that, with conitnued problem comes bad press. With a delayed launch .. that give MS all the upperhand until then. MS isn't going to take over this round, but the longer Sony futts's around, the stronger MS gets.

I'm not a huge MS fan, but I detest Sony and I wish they'd just impload as a company altogether.

(emrah, Belgium)

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Originally Posted by steviep

Nintendo revolutionized console gaming (and continues to do so), Sony just made it more mainstream. Personally, I'm tired of seeing these threads. While it wasn't (I don't think it was) the original intent of the OP to turn this into another "the PS3 will cost $800 in 2007" "NO it won't!" it is quickly turning into another one of those discussions... been there done that.

so. don't. click. on. the. thread.

(mustafa, Faroe Islands)

Yeah, like you stay out of threads that you can make smartass comments in, like that one. Let's all join the Sony bashing! :rolleyes: I may not like Sony as a company, but their console platforms have had a lot of good games, and lineups of developers... do you think that type of thing goes away overnight? Even if it releases next year and at $600.

(ahmet, Lao People's Democratic Republic)

:confused:

(m, Macao)

Any chance we can start a betting ring? Person who guesses the price and release date closest wins! :p

$400 for a stripped version, $500 for one with the bells and whistles. Released in mid October.

(gökçe, Armenia)

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Originally Posted by Erasmus354

In the begining , supposedly some features were cut, the PS3 was to be able to read from basically all the media formats. Thats read saving capabilities, as far as I know, have not been discussed.

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Originally Posted by Naldo

Well, memory sticks arent exactly proprietary media (more companies than just sony make them), but It is sony's standard flash media (used in most of their devices, TVs', Mp3 players, cameras, etc.)

Sony's memory sticks ARE proprietary, ONLY Sony devices use them.

(vüiýcaðýcðýc, Ireland)

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Sony's memory sticks ARE proprietary, ONLY Sony devices use them

not only that, but companies who make the sticks pay a licensing fee to sony.

dualdrop[H]enia

(erttan, Congo)

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Originally Posted by steviep

Nintendo revolutionized console gaming (and continues to do so), Sony just made it more mainstream.

QFT.

(selin, Tonga)

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Originally Posted by santaliqueur

was anyone else really into the PS1?
dualdrop[H]enia

Your fucking kidding right?

(halil ibrahim, Czech Republic)

I personally didn't like the n64 or the PS1 for much else than a few select games. I didn't buy a PS1 until I got it for $99 and bought it just for FF9. Something about that generation of games just didn't really grab me. I was mostly on the PC front then. It took PS2 and Xbox to really bring me back to consoles.

That wasn't the norm really, and the PS1 sold like damn hotcakes.

(ßeLaLi_qirL, Lebanon)

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Originally Posted by Master Bob

Sony's memory sticks ARE proprietary, ONLY Sony devices use them.

My old samsung camcorder used them too, but I see what you are saying. My bad.

(büþra, Macao)

It's been a no brainer about the PS3 being late for quite sometime. Completely new Processor with multiple cores(cells). A new operating system based on linux. Having to come up with an entirely new set of Developers tools based on radically new and complex hardware. It's not like Sony popped a Athlon in there system. Hell even the PS2 was a mips based system which has been around since god was a boy. There cell processor is an entirely new beast. The 360 on the other hand uses a modified Ibm processor that people had already been coding for on a smaller scale in apples for a while now.

It will be another 3 years before Sony has a solid set of developer tools. It's just going to take them time to nail the PS3 hardware down enough so that Devs can get games coded in a timely manner with quality. This happened once already with the PS2 devs hated coding for it and it's still a bithc even today(sony has never had good dev tools) The difference now being that the PS3 is a whole new level of complexity the likes have never been seen before. But the tools will come, both from Sony and the devs who work on it. Fact is devs themselves make the most of there tools anyways.

I think I've changed my views on the PS3 a little. I look at it like this now. It is my opinion that the PS3 will need a good two years after it's launched before we start seeing anything good from it. But I think the hardware will be so powerful that this system can make a run of 5-7 years before it starts showing it's age.

However since Microsoft has apparently got a good solid and easy to code for box this time around Microsoft is here to stay. Plus there devs can't say enough good things about how good there developers tools are for the 360. This will translate into a fast high quality line of games. Whether or not the games will be fun remains to be seen, but nonetheless there will be a wide selection in the 360's library.

Now, at the end of the day after all the debates are over, and all the systems are launched. Sony being late means more competitors consoles sold. Which means lots more competition. And if there is any truth to be had in any video game debate it's competition is the driving force of innovation in any industry.

(amýt soyunun arslaný, Saudi Arabia)

^^^^^^^^^^^^
I feel I have to correct you on some points, since you seem to be piping a similar message in each thread. You claim that the PS3 is vastly more difficult to program for than the X360... And that's only true to a certain extent, and mostly because MS has decent dev tools...

You see... The PPC chips inside the X360... they're not your standard PPC chips, and devs are NOT used to them at all. They are far different from your G3/G4/G5 chips, in that they are "powerpc processing elements", or PPE's for short. Basically, that means they took a PPC chip, and stripped out a ton of shit. Gone are standard features like out-of-order execution, dynamic branch prediction, smart cache handling, and even proper multithreading on each core. How do you think IBM broke their previous heat-related 2.6ghz barrier on the chip? There's enough missing from the standard G5 feature set to be able to bring the pipes down in size and increase the clock rate. Mind you these missing features are not helping programmers for shit, since AI/physics coding is so very difficult, without the powerful branch predictors inside PPC/x86 chips, and the lack of out-of-order is a step back like 30 years...

And... guess what? This "Cell" that you speak of, which is so "radically different"... well, you're right, in that there are 7 SPE's inside, which will help (and ONLY help for this) for graphics and media processing, after devs learn how to use them. The kicker, though? The main core of the PS3, is almost exactly the same as 1 of the X360 cores...IBM did NOT develop 2 separate main architectures just for 2 different game systems! It is a PPE running at the exact same clock rate of 3.2ghz, and with half the cache (512k) that's assigned to the 3 cores of the X360 - both are cache-crippled. That's right... the X360 has 3x3.2ghz PPE's, with 1mb shared cache... and the PS3 has 1x3.2ghz PPE with 512k cache (none is needed for the SPE's since they're pretty useless as processors for anything other than transporting static imagery). So this HUGE developer block that you speak of... well, it isn't so much on the hardware side as it is on the software side. The usage of the SPE's isn't necessary for games... and porting between the 2 systems will be quite easily, considering most games will only utilize 1 core, and both cores are pretty much the same (and multiplatform titles are going to be MUCH more prominent this gen, as you'll see and you're already beginning to see).

My point? Don't be so sure of what the press tells you may or may not be under the hood, these systems are pretty much the same damn thing!!!! The X360 will have a slight advantage for branchy game code, despite the in-order programming that the developers have to pain through, since it has 2 extra cores. However, the PS3 (if the devs actually use the SPE's) has the capability to output nicer looking visuals than the X360. That said, you are correct in assuming (as you have in the past) that the development will cost a slight bit more on the PS3, since devs do have to at least look into the SPE's. Just don't go and assume that the systems have radically different architectures, as their main brain is pretty much the same damn thing.

(Naz, Slovakia)

Quote:

Originally Posted by santaliqueur

got any information to back that up? or was it supposed to be sarcastic? i cant figure it out. everyone on the internet is either a genius or comedian :)

was anyone else really into the PS1? i played a few games on it, i hated it, jaggies galore. when i think of revolutionizing console gaming, i think of nintendo, and the PS2. that said, i'm holding out for the PS3. will probably buy revolution as well, for the exclusive titles.

dualdrop[H]enia

dude, the ps1 is the greatest selling console of all time.

(gunay, Australia)

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Originally Posted by zamardii

dude, the ps1 is the greatest selling console of all time.

And many of us are still wondering why :D

(zehra, Turks and Caicos Islands)

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My point? Don't be so sure of what the press tells you may or may not be under the hood, these systems are pretty much the same damn thing!!!! The X360 will have a slight advantage for branchy game code, despite the in-order programming that the developers have to pain through, since it has 2 extra cores. However, the PS3 (if the devs actually use the SPE's) has the capability to output nicer looking visuals than the X360. That said, you are correct in assuming (as you have in the past) that the development will cost a slight bit more on the PS3, since devs do have to at least look into the SPE's. Just don't go and assume that the systems have radically different architectures, as their main brain is pretty much the same damn thing.

Let me explain it to you like this:

I made a post a few months back called The Fall Of Sony. In that post I predicted that Sony would lose it's number one spot to Microsoft due to cost and programming difficulty.

Since that post there has been an extrordinary amount of people coming forward and claiming that the PS3 is extremely hard to code for. Now, since Sony has not been able to show a game running or even hardware Im going to think that this is somewhat true. Hell John Carmack said it was going to be a bitch to code for many months previous to my post.

There is also the cost issues in coding for it due to increased development time. People have said games keep getting pushed back and back and this in itself leads to more cost.

Sony has said the system is going to be very expensive, going as far as saying people should work extra weeks to afford one. Now analysts are saying that it's going to be skyhigh as well.

Im not the one who is being proved wrong with each passing day since everything I had predicted in that Post is getting closer and closer to being real, and Somehow saying I told you so, just doesnt quite say it.

(aslý, Lesotho)

I say wait until after the Playstation Event (or whatever it is called) in February to see what real info Sony puts out. If nothing comes of that reguarding the launch of the PS3 and a fully working console being shown, well then we can pretty much scrap any launch this Spring or Summer and wonder WTF is up with the blokes at Sony. It is just too early to start shouting the sky if falling.

(suna, Namibia)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steviep

However, the PS3 (if the devs actually use the SPE's) has the capability to output nicer looking visuals than the X360.

Are you sure about that? What about procedural synthesis/dynamic worlds? [I know Procedural synthesis applies, not sure about other one]

Useful Links[For anyone following along]:
Inside X360 Part 1: Procedural Synthesis + Dynamic Worlds
Inside X360 Part 2: Xenon CPU
X360 and PS3, A hardware Discussion
Cell Architecture Explained
Theres Links to other good articles at the end of those links.

(mehmet, Nicaragua)

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...box360-2.ars/3
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...box360-2.ars/7

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When Sony unveiled the Cell at this past ISSCC, the relative lack of information on the PowerPC Processing Element (PPE) that makes up the "host" processor for this network-on-a-chip was a major disappointment. Details on the PPE were scarce, but the details that were released matched up exactly with information that had already been leaked about the IBM-designed PowerPC cores that would power the next-generation Xbox.

The Xenon PPE details given above have since been officially confirmed, which makes it extremely likely that, with the very important exception of the Xenon's VMX hardware, the Cell's PPE shares its architecture with the three cores that make up the CPU that powers the Xbox 360 (yes this has been confirmed by now).

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Before moving on, though, I should take a brief moment to quash a rumor that I unfortunately had a significant hand in starting last year. I originally thought that the PPE design shared by the Cell and the Xenon was derived from the PowerPC 970/POWER5 lineage. This is certainly not the case for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that if IBM could produce a triple-core 970 derivative we'd certainly have seen at least a dual-core 970 derivative in a Mac by now.

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This brings me back to a statement I made at the beginning of this section, where I said that the PPE's deep pipeline was designed to pack a lot of streaming media performance into a small amount of die space. At that point, you were probably thinking that deeply pipelined processors like the Pentium 4 tend to have large die sizes, and if you were thinking so then you were right. However, a deep pipeline doesn't have to spell a large die size, if you throw out the instruction window along with most of the hardware that's intended to help the deep pipeline work well with branchy code.

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The Xenon's 1MB L2 cache is much smaller than what you'd expect for a three-core CPU; ideally, the more cores you have sharing a cache the larger you'd like it to be. In fact, it's even more accurate to say that the more simultaneously running threads you have sharing a cache the larger you'd like it to be, and in this respect the Xenon's 1MB L2 looks even worse. Each of the Xenon's cores is two-way multithreaded, which means that up to six threads will have to share the same 1MB L2 cache. However, there are two good reasons for the relatively small size of the Xenon's L2.

Because the Xenon's caches are tuned for streaming media applications, when it comes to streaming media code they should perform quite well. Unfortunately, however, the "streaming media" application profile doesn't fit every part of the average game engine. In spite of the mitigating factors I've discussed above, the small size of Xenon's L2 is going to hurt branch-intensive game logic, AI, and physics code. Just how much it'll hurt is open to dispute, but I'll take up this topic in more detail in my conclusions.

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Some game developer comments (on the record and off the record) have Xenon's performance on branch-intensive game control, AI, and physics code as ranging from mediocre to downright bad. Xenon will be a streaming media monster, but the parts of the game engine that have to do with making the game fun to play (and not just pretty to look at) are probably going to suffer. Even if the PPE's branch prediction is significantly better than I think it is, the relatively meager 1MB L2 cache that the game control, AI, and physics code will have to share with procedural synthesis and other graphics code will ensure that programmers have a hard time getting good performance out of non-graphics parts of the game.

Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.

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At any rate, Playstation 3 !!!!!!s shouldn't get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3's Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3's L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon's L2. So the PS3 doesn't get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs.

Have you had enough yet?

(Turgut Mustafa, Ethiopia)

so. don't. click. on. the. thread. steviep.

(ERBERK, Costa Rica)

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Originally Posted by Tiny

so. don't. click. on. the. thread. steviep.

stop. typing. in. one. word. sentences. and. contribute. to. the. discussion.
At least I'm trying to educate some to the upside and downside of these things. In fact, the only thing I didn't cover was GPU vs GPU, but that's for another discussion.

(deniz, Saint Pierre and Miquelon)

You're not one of those friendly Canadians I see in the cartoons are you?

(kadircan, Cook Islands)

Couldn't developers just send the graphics off to the SPEs and have the main core processing physics, AI, etc.? :S

(is a complete newb to these thigns though... -has got to find some programing books that don't deal with company management -stares at his stupid books- -

(kemal, Latvia)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny

You're not one of those friendly Canadians I see in the cartoons are you?

More like Terrence and Phillip :D

Nuzzles, the SPE's just don't have the power or instruction sets to replace the instructions inside the CPU. While the GPU will take care of most of the graphics processing in both consoles anyway, the SPE's will assist in certain ways as well. I don't remember offhand what exactly they are good for (other than general statements like "you can watch multiple HD channels at once!") but I do remember reading that they are no Godsend. Bottom line is what ARS said, though. The X360 has a slight advantage with game code, and the PS3 has a slight advantage for visuals, at least on paper (i.e. it rests in the hands of the developers as well).

(fatih, San Marino)

Eh, I was just trying to get at if the visual stuff was all handled by the SPE's (excluding the graphics card parts..of course), where unlike the 360 where it's got 3 cores to spread everything else out on, couldn't they just dedicate the main core to do more productive tasks. Maybe I'm taking logic a bit too far, though.

(onurcan, San Marino)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuzzles

Couldn't developers just send the graphics off to the SPEs and have the main core processing physics, AI, etc.? :S

That's the whole idea.

(muhammed, Ecuador)

Analysts Question PS3 Release Date ( 1 Views )

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